Curse

cellardweller · Mar 02, 2007, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Nearly ever time I go do some pve mission I see subpar players with subpar builds. When I get bored enough to pve, I almost always PUG... just for the pure comedy of the experience.

More than 10% of RA teams would contain an appalling build of some sort, and yet the numbers in PvE are low enough that you can play the game through without ever encountering them. I personally am 80% pve and 20%pvp and have racked up > 4k hours of playing time. If all these mistakes are being made by pve'ers and not new/poor players, what do you think the statistical probability is that I would have seen them more times than I can in PvP arenas but never in a pve context?

If anything, pve is set in the same "cookie cutter" team mentality that is more prevelant in the higher forms of pvp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

PvErs are 'new' when then start the transition to PvP, and are often 'poor' at it - if only at first. I fail to see your point.

PVE'ers are not the same as new players. A new player will continue to wack at a target through empathy, a pve'er won't. An PvE'er entering RA for the first time will generally be entering as a "mediocre" RA player, certainly not poor. They understand what all the skills, they know how to kite and snare, they understand what all the little icons do. They won't kill themselves on hexes like spoil victor, or try to run while crippled. They certainly won't be entering with firestorm on a monk's bar because they've already all of this learned this from thousands of hours of PVE.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Mar 02, 2007, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Why can't we accept that new PvP players can be:

-new to the game

-new to computer gaming online

-new to PvP from PvE

-new to thinking in a tactical manner

Any number of other variations of newness.

There's enough people out there that aren't highly skilled at PvE or PvP to make the benefit of any basic lessons useful.

How is this an issue?

Isn't enough to say, "In this article I'll try to point out the most common mistakes PvE players make when trying PvP, as well as basic concepts a lot of beginner players don't immediately grasp"?

Doesn't that get us in the ballpark and into a place of mutual understanding as to the author's intent?

Yet, somehow, the actual text is ignored and a metaphysical meaning comes across to confound of us all.

cellardweller · Mar 02, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Isn't enough to say, "In this article I'll try to point out the most common mistakes PvE players make when trying PvP, as well as basic concepts a lot of beginner players don't immediately grasp"?

Doesn't that get us in the ballpark and into a place of mutual understanding as to the author's intent?

Why do you need to have PvE mentioned at all? Whether or not a player enjoys pve has nothing to do with how them having difficulty grasping the basics of the game.

"In this article I'll try to point out the most common mistakes inexperienced players make when trying PvP"
Much better.

B Ephekt · Mar 02, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

More than 10% of RA teams would contain an appalling build of some sort, and yet the numbers in PvE are low enough that you can play the game through without ever encountering them. I personally am 80% pve and 20%pvp and have racked up > 4k hours of playing time. If all these mistakes are being made by pve'ers and not new/poor players, what do you think the statistical probability is that I would have seen them more times than I can in PvP arenas but never in a pve context?

All I'm saying is that nearly every time I venture into pve I see bad players using silly builds. I'm not saying all pvers are like this, but this has been my observation. I see bad players and builds in pvp as well.

Perhaps we have different ideas of what's bad though.

Quote:

If anything, pve is set in the same "cookie cutter" team mentality that is more prevelant in the higher forms of pvp.

I don't see what this has to do with anything. People use what works; you'd have to be a scrub not to.

Quote:

PVE'ers are not the same as new players. A new player will continue to wack at a target through empathy, a pve'er won't. An PvE'er entering RA for the first time will generally be entering as a "mediocre" RA player, certainly not poor. They understand what all the skills, they know how to kite and snare, they understand what all the little icons do. They won't kill themselves on hexes like spoil victor, or try to run while crippled. They certainly won't be entering with firestorm on a monk's bar because they've already all of this learned this from thousands of hours of PVE.

That's funny, everytime I go into RA i get paired up with some of the worst players in the game. These people attack though Empathy, attack through SS while standing next to team mates, cast through Spoil Victor, walk through traps they just watched a ranger lay, don't kite or 'kite' away from monks and often seem confused as to why they died.

My point was that when a pve player moves over into pvp they're 'new' in the sense that they lack the experience for that game mode. They may know some common sense things, but they will make newbie mistakes and often lose without knowing why. These players will also be 'poor' pvpers for at least a little while. This is what the article was addressing. You're taking this out of context and making sensationalist claims.

cellardweller · Mar 02, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

All I'm saying is that nearly every time I venture into pve I see bad players using silly builds. I'm not saying all pvers are like this, but this has been my observation. I see bad players and builds in pvp as well.

Perhaps we have different ideas of what's bad though.
I don't see what this has to do with anything. People use what works; you'd have to be a scrub not to.

I don't have problem using cookie cutters - the point being almost every pve'er [i]and[i] pvp'er I encounter does and this means that, they're not using doing the things that the article claims they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

That's funny, everytime I go into RA i get paired up with some of the worst players in the game. These people attack though Empathy, attack through SS while standing next to team mates, cast through Spoil Victor, walk through traps they just watched a ranger lay, don't kite or 'kite' away from monks and often seem confused as to why they died.

So when you see bad play in a pvp arena, this means pve'er don't know how to play - nice logic you have there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

My point was that when a pve player moves over into pvp they're 'new' in the sense that they lack the experience for that game mode. They may know some common sense things, but they will make newbie mistakes and often lose without knowing why. These players will also be 'poor' pvpers for at least a little while. This is what the article was addressing. You're taking this out of context and making sensationalist claims.

And I'm saying that no pve player would make any of the mistakes presented in the article, and to address such remedial "tips" at pve'er is blatantly insulting.

An analogy would be a Professional Java programmer presenting a Professional C# programmer with an "learn to code" book and saying "here this will help you code better".

DreamWind · Mar 02, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

And I'm saying that no pve player would make any of the mistakes presented in the article, and to address such remedial "tips" at pve'er is blatantly insulting.

And I would say that most of them do from experience. Maybe not as bad as things such as using fire skills on a monk (which I agree was stupid), but using skills such as mending and healing breeze on a warrior is commonplace. Anybody who plays pve with any consistency will find that out. So of course if these players transfer over to PvP they will use the same skills.

I am still trying to grasp my mind around why people are being offended. I pointed out why people shouldn't be offended earlier, but I can't believe I am still talking about it. I read the article again, and the main idea I got from the article was "PvE and PvP are different animals and here are some differences". That is all.

And the article does not mention all PvE players or that all bad players in PvP are PvE players. I don't know where people are getting this. The article speaks to a majority of players (who are PvE players) so it is mathematically true that most of the players who use those skills are PvE players. I don't see what the problem is here. If you aren't one of those players who uses those skills, plays PvE, and wants to PvP, then the article is not for you. End.

cellardweller · Mar 02, 2007, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

And I would say that most of them do from experience. Maybe not as bad as things such as using fire skills on a monk (which I agree was stupid), but using skills such as mending and healing breeze on a warrior is commonplace. Anybody who plays pve with any consistency will find that out. So of course if these players transfer over to PvP they will use the same skills.

The people you see using these skills in pve are the same poor/inexperienced players you see using them in pvp. By the same token, you will never see an experienced warrior using these skills in pve or pvp. These are skills that and mistakes that apply to people new to the game regardless of whether they are pvp players or pve players

If the following was presented in a pvp to pve article you'd have exactly the same uproar from the pvp comunity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraphrase

In PvP you can't always count on your allies to cover your back, so it's understandable when you bring some defensive skills even if you are a damage dealer. In PvE, if you can't count on your teammates, then you can't hope to win at all. Make sure your character focuses on what it's best at, rather than spreading too thin.

If you are a Monk, don't cast Fire Magic spells. You have the Divine Favor primary attribute, so your healing spells are inherently more effective than anyone else's. Use your Energy for that and leave the Fire Magic to the Elementalists.

The exception is the farming character. If you're running a character designed to farm solo on its own to kill mobs or bosses, it is perfectly fine to bring several self-sustaining skills.

DreamWind · Mar 02, 2007, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

These are skills and mistakes that apply to people new to the game regardless of whether they are pvp players or pve players.

True, but the article had two purposes. One, to speak to a majority of Guild Wars players (hence why PvE player was used instead of new player). Two, to promote the natural progression of the game. Most players start with PvE and then MIGHT play PvP or might not. Those two things are who the article targeted and I think it did that just fine.

Quote:

If the following was presented in a pvp to pve article you'd have exactly the same uproar from the pvp comunity.

Eh...most pvp players I know wouldn't care. They have been getting generalized as arrogant unhelpful rankflashers for years. One article wouldn't do much.

cellardweller · Mar 02, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Eh...most pvp players I know wouldn't care. They have been getting generalized as arrogant unhelpful rankflashers for years. One article wouldn't do much.

Ok, I think we're getting to why there's a miscomunication in why there's a perceived problem - This insult was anet sanctioned and hosted on an anet site. If the same thing was in a fan forum - I would say no big deal, the problem comes when there's a statement on the guildwars site effectively saying "all pve'ers are newbs that don't know how the game works"

DreamWind · Mar 02, 2007, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Ok, I think we're getting to why there's a miscomunication in why there's a perceived problem - This insult was anet sanctioned and hosted on an anet site.

But it wasn't Anets opinion. It was somebody elses. And Anet can put whatever they want on their site that nobody is paying for. We pay for game content, not game opinions.

Quote:

effectively saying "all pve'ers are newbs that don't know how the game works"

It didn't say that...not even close. Oh well.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Mar 02, 2007, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Why do you need to have PvE mentioned at all? Whether or not a player enjoys pve has nothing to do with how them having difficulty grasping the basics of the game.

For a very simple and obvious reason:

Most people, especially those new to a game, will play PvE before attempting PvP.

Rolling a level 20 PvP-only character is much less inviting to a beginner for a variety of reasons.

So, by statistics alone, most players that start PvP will be coming from the PvE side of the game.

It may be insensitive to say it, but it's rather petty to be so sensitive about the very mention of PvE in an article that's titled From PvE to PvP.

B Ephekt · Mar 02, 2007, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

So when you see bad play in a pvp arena, this means pve'er don't know how to play - nice logic you have there.

What? It seems that you're taking my comments out of context as well.

Quote:

And I'm saying that no pve player would make any of the mistakes presented in the article, and to address such remedial "tips" at pve'er is blatantly insulting.

Obviously people do make these mistakes; I see it every time I go into RA. That was the point I was making with my comments about RA. There is a certain portion of the Guild Wars population that do these ridiculous things, and yes, they're mostly pve players. The article was intended for those pvers who may think mending or healing breeze are useful skills. If you have a basic understanding of the game then that portion of the article wasn't meant for you - that should've been obvious from the start.

What I don't understand is, if you're not one of those mending wammos, why take issue with this?

dgb · Mar 02, 2007, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Eh...most pvp players I know wouldn't care. They have been getting generalized as arrogant unhelpful rankflashers for years. One article wouldn't do much.

I am an arrogant unhelpful rankflasher.

Nub.

Zorglubb · Mar 02, 2007, 07:00 AM // 07:00

>I am an arrogant unhelpful rankflasher.

Go play "The Sims 2" please, that's more appropriate to your state of mind.

dgb · Mar 02, 2007, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorglubb

>I am an arrogant unhelpful rankflasher.

Go play "The Sims 2" please, that's more appropriate to your state of mind.

It's a joke, but whatever.

Learn to quote IMO.

cellardweller · Mar 02, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

What? It seems that you're taking my comments out of context as well.

Obviously people do make these mistakes; I see it every time I go into RA. That was the point I was making with my comments about RA. There is a certain portion of the Guild Wars population that do these ridiculous things, and yes, they're mostly pve players.

You've just followed exactly the same flawed logic again. No they're not PvEers they're NEW PLAYERS!!!! You seem to think that everyone that makes rudimentary mistakes is a pve'er. The simple fact is they don't because the same mistakes get you killed in pve too. Take FoW for example - a warrior that doesn't quickly learn not to attack through spitefu spiteful will get the group killed. By the time they learned to be a pve'er they have also learned most things needed in pvp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

The article was intended for those pvers who may think mending or healing breeze are useful skills. If you have a basic understanding of the game then that portion of the article wasn't meant for you - that should've been obvious from the start.

Then address the article to new players, don't patronise pve'ers who already by telling things they learned 18 months ago - just like pvpers. Its obvious you're not going to understand without a picture so here you go.

The Magenta section contains PvPers. They would breeze through any of the elite missions if they were the least bit interested in the game. Generally these are the pvp'ers that would recognise and complain about poor players.

The Red Section contains PvE'ers. They would be earning Glad points within an hour of trying RA for the first time. It is this group of players this article is offensive to.

The green section we're not concerned with, because they've just bought the game to chat in the great temple.

The 3 blue sections contain your mending wammos and firestorm monks. They suck at playing regardless of what flavour guildwars they choose because they haven't learned how things work yet. These people might actually benefit from what is in the article.

The article is actually aimed at the blue section, but addressed to red section and thats the problem. If they wanted to actually create an article which was aimed at making a pve to pvp transistion they would look at address things like focus swapping, stance cancelling and positioning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

What I don't understand is, if you're not one of those mending wammos, why take issue with this?

I'm in the pink section so no I'm not a mending wammo - I take issue because I think it is inappropriate for Anet to have an article that insults a large proportion of its gamers with its condescending attitude and tone on the official site.

dgb · Mar 02, 2007, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You've just followed exactly the same flawed logic again. No they're not PvEers they're NEW PLAYERS!!!!

So why did I see a Fissure armoured warrior light up with mending ten minutes ago in RA? When a comment was made, he insisted that he knew how to play and he had "Protector of Tyria" to prove it.

This is just one example, but it's actually pretty common. I cringe when I see fissure armour in RA as it generally means that the guy is about to do something stupid.

cellardweller · Mar 02, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

So why did I see a Fissure armoured warrior light up with mending ten minutes ago in RA? When a comment was made, he insisted that he knew how to play and he had "Protector of Tyria" to prove it.

This is just one example, but it's actually pretty common. I cringe when I see fissure armour in RA as it generally means that the guy is about to do something stupid.

I can guarentee you he sucks at pve too - thats what people in the blue section do.

arcanemacabre · Mar 02, 2007, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

So why did I see a Fissure armoured warrior light up with mending ten minutes ago in RA? When a comment was made, he insisted that he knew how to play and he had "Protector of Tyria" to prove it.

This is just one example, but it's actually pretty common. I cringe when I see fissure armour in RA as it generally means that the guy is about to do something stupid.

That is the kind of person who bought their account on eBay. Believe it or not, there are a LOT of those out there.

DarkSpirit · Mar 02, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

I read the short article and there is nothing really new or interesting about it. It is like PvP 101 which most average players would have known by now.

I thought he would talk about split strategies and such, but the article is really basic even though I consider myself to be a PvE player mostly and only dabble in PvP from time to time. It is obvious that PvP and PvE are different and certain skills are not as effective in PvP as they are in PvE and vice versa.

And what he said about warriors and tanks etc. is so obvious, nothing new or interesting.